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In this episode Joel and Antonia talk about the ENTJ, ESTJ, ENFJ, and ESFJ personality types and how they look when they are healthy.

In this podcast you’ll find:

First in the series of podcasts we intend to do on healthy expressions of all the types.

Beginning with Extraverted Judgers – ENTJ, ESTJ, ENFJ, and ESFJ.

Behavior is an emergent of our personality type. We exhibit behavior based upon the wiring of our minds.

Behaviors are also influenced by culture and family environment.

“All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” ― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina

When we are unhealthy we can look very different from each other. But healthy looks the same.


  • Lead with Te but have different copilots. Copilots are our path to growth and happiness. The healthier our relationship with our copilot, the healthier we are overall.
  • In an extraverted type, the copilot is going to be introverted.
  • These two types will appear very different when healthy because of that different copilot.


  • Driver – Extraverted Thinking (Te) – Likes to get things done. Te dominant users are confident of their abilities to be in control and create efficient systems. ENTJs and ESTJs will both have this strength.
  • Copilot – Introverted Intuition (Ni) – Ni is interested in meaning. The thing that balances out the ENTJ is Ni.
  • Stereotype of ENTJ is a CEO of a large company. But not all healthy ENTJs are CEO’s.
  • The sign of a healthy ENTJ:
    • They have taken the concept of leadership and how things should be in the outside world and married it with the concept of a long range perspective. Long term impact.
    • Not temporary fixes and the search for a quick dollar, but slowing down and listening to others and learning from their perspectives.
    • They don’t look frenetic or bulldozey.
    • They become more philosophical.
    • They want to make an impact but they don’t mind when things take longer to realize.
    • They are better at running simulations in their mind and not becoming demoralized when victory doesn’t occur.
    • They are reaching for something bigger than themselves.
  • Unhealthy ENTJ:
    • Can distract themselves with sensory pleasures and refuse to slow down.
    • ENTJs can easily fall into the trap of checking items off a to-do list. (Copilot gives them a broader perspective than just obsessing about getting things done.)
    • Easily distracted. Tertiary is Extraverted Sensing. Which isn’t a healthy place. Looks like a lot of indulgent behaviors engaged in for distraction.
  • ENTJs that accomplish the combination of their driver and copilot are generally much happier and have healthier interpersonal relationships.


  • Driver – Extraverted Thinking (Te) – same as ENTJ – Should statements around how things should be operating in the outside world .
  • Copilot – Introverted Sensing (Si) – Concerned with reliability. The Past and our relationship with it. Research is important. A desire for safety.
  • All SJ types have a tendency to honor institutions in general. Institutions are predictable and reliable. Safety in numbers.
  • The sign of a healthy ESTJ:
    • Grounded in a sense that everything is going to be okay.
    • Many ESTJs may experience anxiety because they can’t find enough security and safety around them. The healthier an ESTJ gets the more that fear goes away.
    • Instead of frenetically attempting to force change upon the world, the healthy ESTJ will find a way to create change at the structural level – with institutions.
    • The stereotypical ESTJ is the supervisor, manager, civil servants, or local politician. Their desire to make sure institutions are running well really defines their health. They are grounded and focused.
    • A really grounded ESTJ is a protector. They are reliable. They are making things happening from a grounded place.
    • They can be very protective of their families and ensure the needs of their mates are being met. They secure the perimeter.
  • Unhealthy ESTJ:
    • When you see an ESTJ that is unhealthy they are typically ungrounded.
    • They don’t have the ability to stop and think. Opportunity to opportunity. Chasing the newest thing.
    • They have the sense of how things should be operating, but lack the control to implement. This creates anxiety.
    • Manipulative behaviors can be the result in an attempt to reclaim control. It can even get into the arena of panic attacks. There’s a need to regain control – even if unconscious.
  • All EJ types are very service minded. There’s an idea of how things should be in the outside world. In order to create that world  you have to be willing to serve in that world and be part of the system.


  • Lead with Fe but have different copilots. Copilots are our path to growth and happiness. The healthier our relationship with our copilot, the healthier we are overall.
  • In an extraverted type, the copilot is going to be introverted.
  • These two types will appear very different when healthy because of that different copilot.


  • Driver – Extraverted Feeling (Fe) – Very connective with the human element. Focused on getting people’s needs met.
    • Fe has the ability to multitask really well. If you are trying to get everybody’s needs met you have to be able to split your attention along multiple levels. This may be why most women are considered good at mulitasking because many of them are Fe users.
  • Copilot – Introverted Intuition (Ni) – Shifting into other people’s perspectives and seeing the bigger picture. The etymology. The reasons behind the reasons behind the reasons.
  • The Sign of a Healthy ENFJ:
    • Grounds their Driver (Fe) with their copilot (Ni) and seeks for something bigger. Something with meaning.
    • Pays careful attention to their own energy management.
    • Showing tough love.
    • Getting one’s own needs met.
    • Seeing complexity within relationships.
    • Creating boundaries.
    • Having a few deep relationships versus many shallow ones.
    • Giving themselves permission to go within and consider their own needs.
    • Stillness. Calm.
    • The most healthy ENFJs understand the importance of vulnerability to enjoy deeper connections.
  • Unhealthy ENFJs:
    • A lot of frenetic, indulgent behavior.
    • An ENFJ whose entire focus is around getting people’s needs met is destined for stress because people are unpredictable.
    • Martyrdom: Total service to complete meltdowns – on repeat.
    • A lot of surface level relationships.
    • Struggles to be completely present with people because they are too busy managing texts, emails and phone calls.
    • Seek distraction through sensory indulgence – usually food. In an effort to fuel themselves for the endless demands placed upon them.


  • Driver – Extraverted Feeling (Fe) – same as ENFJ – 
  • Copilot – Introverted Sensing (Si) – same as ESTJ – Interested in precedent. Tried and true. Safety oriented. Prefers ties to the past. Tied with Fe, it becomes people centric.
    • ESFJs try to create an environment that replicates things they have seen before. Traditions are important. Shared memories.
    • ESFJs like touch points that can make them feel safe. Family photos and memories. Ready cash. These things anchor them to a safe place.
  • Stereotypes: Teachers. Pastors. Leaders of people. Really great mom or dad.
  • The Sign of a Healthy ESFJ:
    • Creates containers for people they love in their lives. A safe space for meaningful experiences – for themselves and others. Connectivity through shared experiences.
    • Good at multitasking.
    • The more healthy they get the more they have a sense of equilibrium and look more relaxed.
    • Meeting the needs of others while meeting their own needs.
    • Fill lives with authentic, deep intimacies.
    • Centered. Settled. Friendly. Nurturing. Stable.
    • Touch points of safety to lean into.
  • Unhealthy ESFJ:
    • Surrounded by a plethora of shallow connections and few authentically intimate relationships.
    • An overall feeling of disconnection.
    • Lacking basic feelings of safety and worried about the future.



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Showing 4 comments
  • Amanda

    This podcast was very helpful and interesting to listen to. Especially for me, I am an ENTJ with some ENFJ tendencies. And I can speak with experience that using my “perspectives” side of me is a big key. Sometimes I get caught up in the craziness of life and lose focus(What you call Monkey mind). For me I find that daily running, meditation, and writing are keys to help me remember what I am doing. Another huge thing you got right was the “energy management”. If I do not manage my energy and take coffee breaks I will get low and just have the hardest time doing anything productive. So energy management is key for me. I have to take time in the afternoon to rest for at least 20 minutes to keep the rest of the day productive.

    Now the guy I am currently seeing is also an ENTJ, like you said when stressed he will go out to parties and go a little crazy. And one of my brothers is an ENTJ as well and he does the same thing under stress. But my brother when healthy is very productive and always looking to improve himself and his wife in life. He pushes me a lot too and I am happy to have that in my life. But like you said, he is calm and does not freak out or just run me over with his words, he is great at listening and we always have great conversations.

    For me, I can go two ways, either go crazy and look for crazy things to do(Skydiving, rock climbing, reckless biking in the city) or I will sit around and watch too much TV and eat(Normally happens when I am fearful, not angry as in the other case).

    My other brother is an ESFJ, like you said he use to have poor boundaries with friends and just go with them all the time. But through the years, he now knows when to say no. But yes, he holds to past examples very strongly and is always judging my choices because I am less worried about that tradition says. But he can be more adventurous than me at times.

    All this to say I found this podcast really helpful and great tool to help understand my brothers better and myself. :p

  • Sarah

    I was just wondering, so you were talking about an ENFJ character and you used the word “companion,” and then you went on to describe someone who sounds suspiciously like Clara Oswald from Doctor Who. Is that who you were referring to? I’m just curious 🙂

  • Emily S.

    Thank you guys–so conversational and easy to understand, as always!

    I was wondering though, what does it look like when someone’s dominant process is not healthy? What would Te or Fe look like when not properly developed?

    (Yes, I am a nosy INFJ who wants to use this information to help people :p)

  • Denzel Mensah

    I would absolutely love to watch the show and observe this ENFJ character that seemed to resemble an INFJ. Do you guys mind informing me what show it was? Was it indeed “Doctor Who?”

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