Podcast – Episode 0201 – Introverted Thinking vs Extraverted Thinking
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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about the difference between the thinking cognitive functions Introverted Thinking vs Extraverted Thinking.
In this podcast you’ll find:
- Introverted Intuition vs Extraverted Intuition podcast
- Sensing Personality Types podcast
- Two judging processes:
- Introverted Thinking (Ti) “Accuracy”
- Extraverted Thinking (Te) “Effectiveness”
- Car Model
- All TPs use Introverted Thinking
- All TJs use Extraverted Thinking
- Both thinking processes are judging processes that prefer impersonal criteria
- If you are a Thinker, you are going to have a Thinking process that is very influential for you.
- Even Feelers will find this interesting because all Feelers have Thinking processes somewhere in their car.
- Impersonal criteria = things that aren’t just about people metrics.
- Other data is also relevant because people aren’t always a trusted resource.
- If you are a Thinker, you aren’t a robot.
- You may think very strongly of how you impact people, but you also know there are other influencers, too.
- Sustainable, long game implications.
- Thinkers are not sociopaths.
- The Judging functions have attitudes – introverted and extraverted criteria
- Effectiveness is a Thinking function with an extraverted attitude – Te
- Accuracy is a Thinking function with an introverted attitude – Ti
- An Extraverted attitude is going to base its decisions on external criteria.
- Real world resources, timelines.
- All thinking processes want to see impact and effect.
- They want to determine what we should be doing.
- Outcomes and endgames are very important to all the judging processes.
- Effectiveness is the most tapped into how things play out in the real world.
- What is the return on investment?
- Did we accomplish the goal?
- What works?
- Effectiveness gets very good at taking in environment and context.
- How do we have to manage people to make sure they are operating at their highest potential?
- What is the ROI? What is the 80/20?
- Getting Things Done by David Allen
- The difference between a project and a task.
- A project has multiple tasks involved with it, like changing your oil.
- Effectiveness instinctively understands the difference between projects and tasks and can break each project into its itemized tasks.
- Effectiveness is great in a world where tons of resources need to be managed at any given time.
- They get really good at making quick decisions based on ROI and previously garnered metrics.
- What is the best course of action?
- Effectiveness understands other people’s potential.
- The biggest challenge Te has is the tendency to look for shortcuts.
- There is no such thing as a shortcut. Somebody is paying the price.
- Streamlining is important, but it can prevent the TJ from learning what they need to learn.
- Effectiveness is better than efficiency.
- When TJs are efficient, they are hoping for a higher return with as little output as possible.
- Effectiveness should be the gauge and efficiency should be the tool you use to get to effectiveness.
- Acceptable loss principal = spillage
- It can feel icky to other types, but it’s not always a bad thing.
- We need people to think in these terms because the whole world can’t always work out ideally.
- When acceptable spillage goes too high, then it is a sign that Effectiveness has lost its way.
- TJs need to be very deliberate about the impact they want to make.
- What is the endgame?
- What works and what is good?
- Introverted Thinking (Ti) – Accuracy
- Accuracy is more focused on ensuring that the internal thought processes are clean and uncorrupted
- More interested in process than result
- The Outcome at the end isn’t necessarily a priority.
- Internal metrics = greater subjectivity
- Extraverted Thinking is objective = did it work or not?
- Introverted thinking is about passing your own criteria, but its subjectivity isn’t based on feelings as much as data.
- What is true after we have removed desire?
- Info and data must be pure – ideally.
- Introverted thinking likes to go back to all the programming it has received and determining its value.
- Can I know that to be true?
- How much info is corrupt or unnecessary?
- How does it compare with other info I have already vetted?
- “Neurons that fire together, wire together.”
- Ti looks for relational pathways and false conflations.
- Some untrue elements may be wired to true data and accepted as true due to relational involvement.
- Accuracy is good at surgically removing the untrue info from the accurate info.
- What info can be trusted?
- Accuracy users can’t stop learning. They love to gather more info and root out the bad.
- It can be hard for an Accuracy user to share accurate info with someone who chooses to reject it in preference for bad info.
- Accuracy users needs to make sure they take in more info to add to the existing data framework.
- Accuracy at its best is skeptical of its own thoughts.
- If Ti takes shortcuts, the data may become corrupted.
- Extraverted Thinking looks at the result, and Introverted Thinking looks at the process.
- Introverted Thinking is very focused on integrity, whereas Extraverted Thinking doesn’t always see the value of integrity.
- When new info comes into the world of a TJ, it gets categorized by whether or not it is actionable.
- When new info comes into the world of a TP, it gets added to all the other info to be sorted and valued later.
- When info becomes so process focused that it loses sight of impact the TP may appear to be a jerk because no one is valuing their data.
- It may even corrupt its own data to meet the desired end.
- Introverted Thinking may not be practical when it comes to impact.
- Extraverted Thinking is less focused on clean process and more focused on impact.
- Accuracy sees info as ubiquitous and abundant. It has no problem sharing info freely, which can get it into trouble.
- Effectiveness sees info as limited. If all info is actionable, there is limited action that can be taken. Info is power, so it must be withheld.
- Effectiveness people can weaponize info, so they assume others will do the same.
- Accuracy is very free with info.
- TPs hate it when the info they share is corrupted.
- TJs withhold data and keep their cards close to their chest, so their intent is misunderstood by others.
- Relationship to info can hijack both of these types and their interaction with the world.
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Great podcast!
Personally I have always struggled with the truth. As a child ENTP in a Harmony household i’ve been lying my way through my childhood to try and please everyone. later the truth felt so liberating that I vowed never to lie again. (still not managing that and not sure if i want to anymore though).
The truth however is getting more and more difficult as you explained, because a lot of things can be true if you cannot disprove it. (like your video game example or more recent conspiracy theories). I noticed i was getting more and more nervous by not being able to find “the truth” until I started using a more statistical approach. In that way multiple things “could be right” at the same time. Just some were more likely to be true then others. That gave me a lot of ease in my mind and I could let go of issues a lot easier.
The restaurant anecdote triggered me too by the way. My first reaction to someone mentioning that restaurant to me would be trying to find a pattern for the emergence of that type of resaurant (near highways, certain countries, etc) not wether the person would like to go there.
I am not even going to start about the people “freely interpreting” my given information to draw conclusions that are…. let’s say “very counter intuitive” to me, as they might be true (however unlikely).
Great podcast! Thank you. My husband has tested as a TJ and I have began to wonder if he’s more of a TP. Let’s podcast was very helpful to me in understanding the difference between introverted and extroverted thinking. My husband only heard my summary highlights but refuses to entertain the possibility of being a TP. I am convinced he sees that as “corrupt information”. Since he does not jump to take action and retest, that all only affirms what I see in him and his teal type being a TP.
So one of the worst possible situations for someone with Ti to be in, is an upbringing in a highly psychologically abusive family.
If I understood correctly, Te values outer results first, while Ti values inner order (truth). The question is: what makes them value things differently? It feels like they both are rewarded by inner chemistry for different things: one for effectiveness, another for accuracy. Then what determines these things which your inner chemistry rewards you the most: biology or values caused by socialization? Maybe both…
Anyway, the current conclusion I’ve made for myself, is develop both. If your values lies in the outer world, then having both you’ll be effectiveness machine, as accuracy increases efficiency.
Joel and Antonia, thanks for what you do.
I just finished listening to this, it’s been so enlightening in regards to my relationship dynamics. Thank you! I am infj and my husband is entj. His Te is constantly assuming action for whatever I share with him… Particularly feelings. Lol. And his Fi tends to take offence when I bring him into the feeling world because I don’t always understand his intent. We both get rather frustrated with each other in a lot of communication (unless we are jiving in our Ni, which is soooo much fun, but we often overindulge time wise and ignore my Fe and his Te and end up frustrated then too, lol). However this podcast in general has been exceedingly helpful for us in how to more effectively and harmoniously communicate with one another. I’ll be sharing this episode with him as I think he’ll find it interesting, considering Te is his dominant function. Funnily enough we used to think he was intj and I was enfj – the cognitive functions car model description has been exceedingly helpful.
Thank you Joel and Anotonia for providing the in depth analyses you do, and for being so welcoming; I’m finally choosing to be brave enough to share my thoughts with everyone here.
This was very helpful. I am an INFJ who has just started digging deeper into personality types to figure out a way to better relate to an INTJ in my life. Not only did this podcast give me insight into the other person, it helped me understand my own thought process as well. Introverted thinking is a very strong part of my personality. (I think it is little more like an unruly 18 year old who wants to move out of the house, than a 10 year old.) This helped me to understand why so many people resent my insistence on clean thinking. It seems obvious to me that everyone should want to clean up their thinking process! I enjoy a good argument, not just to win, but to find the holes in my own thinking. I don’t find many people who enjoy that process. When I try it with the wrong people, they get upset, which of course stresses me out because I’m an INFJ. This was very helpful in letting me see how I might use the gift of accuracy in a more productive way.
I so relate to all of this Mary! I was known to be a stickler for semantics growing up, and nobody understood that I was actually seeking Truth, and not to be right. I’d argue as though my assumptions were correct, looking for others to share their opposing viewpoints, and yes, I do admit fault in my thinking when somebody presents a good counter argument. I felt quite alone and misunderstood, but as I’ve grown up and started to use Harmony more and more and it’s definitely more effective. Lol. However there are still times I catch myself coming off a little aggressive. I think my Ti gave me external validation in a world where me Ni couldn’t be celebrated or recognized so I over developed it. I also think I used it to test in my teenage years when I dropped Fe like a hot potato – needless to say replacing Harmony with accuracy was not very well received. Lol. Thanks for your comment!!!
Yes! Found what I was looking for: the best podcast at PH for entps. Been really wanting Antonia to let loose and explain Ti. This is the one.
I liked Antonia’s description of pulling out faulty lines that have wired together. I tend to think of this as like having bubbles of internally coherent ideas but as they start to merge they are misshapen; I have to run in circles to re-evaluate the larger context for internal consistency again; usually that means sanding off a few corners and killing some sacred cows. And so when the new larger bubble is perfect I look up like “hey look! I made it fit! All it took was eliminating this belief ive long held.” Then people either say “wow you are amazingly unbiased” or “how can I trust you when you change your mind so fast about deeply held beliefs.”
I think these ideas that are wired together, they don’t have the deep etymology of Fi ideology so when you rip them out it doesn’t hurt. It takes time but doesn’t actually hurt. It’s not like you tug on it and it just won’t move. I see this “tugging it but it’s locked in place” thing happen with ixfj who tend to love Ti and clap for my doing of it and have Ti envy but at the end of the day can’t quite do such an extraction on themselves.
Podcast also Helped me realize why studying formal logic makes sense. Loved the strong emphasis on the subjective nature of Ti. The subjectivity of Ti means you’re really only going to be as good as your subjectively acquired tool set. What are you operating with?
Okay thanks. I really really really hope you’ll do more Entp flavored self improvenebt stuff because it is a fucking wasteland out there. Most of mbti is run by infjs who can’t get over their love for Entp and just want to put us in their house and watch us do tricks but im like, please, somebody, teach me to tell a proper resume lie about all of your favorite films which I edited.
I found Antonia’s story about the film editing rather informative. I’ve self-typed my best fit type as INTP, but I don’t resonate with her reaction to the information. I don’t think I would have been offended that they gave me wrong information. Once I found out that they were stretching the truth to the extent they were I probably would have made a character judgment of them, a negative one. Yeah the information was wrong, but I would be more offended at their character than the fact that they gave me wrong information. Like, why would anyone ever do that? You’ve just shown yourself to be a dishonest person and will forever be overcoming that perception in my mind.
The Te explanation was very helpful also as it helped me better understand some of my ETJ friends.
Hi. I have really enjoyed these deep dives into the distinction between introverted and extroverted manifestations of the cognitive functions – the kind of podcasts you do best. I hope you can continue this with intuition and sensing!
Love it
I really enjoyed this podcast! I’m ENTJ and my partner is ISTP, and I could absolutely relate to the experience of his sharing information with me, and my having a reaction where I think he’s requesting action of me. It was a big source of stress for a few years in our marriage because we didn’t know how to have a conversation without my being angry at him for changing the plan, when he was actually just sharing some data with me. I’m really looking forward to his listening to this to see if he also relates that information back to that experience in our marriage.
Also, I particularly liked the section on acceptable and allowable loss. This is something that I hold very tightly and is very important to me in my decision making. This may have been my imagination, but there was one point when Joel was talking about the customer service menu that he seemed to be struggling with explaining the rationale of a Te in the situation where the effectiveness of the automated menu might actually outweigh the lost of a certain percentage of customer satisfaction. It reminded me of a dear dear ENFP friend who also really struggles with my acceptable loss philosophy. We end up in debates where things always turn really dark where I end up saying that there are absolutely situations where a really horrifying human loss is acceptable in exchange for the more effective option (or as Antonia put it, in exchange for a situation where we would all lost in exchange for not sacrificing that smaller group). My ENFP friends says that under no circumstances would that human loss ever be acceptable and there are always other options that don’t involve the human loss that I consider to be acceptable in really extreme situations (purely hypothetical). Anyway, I think this friend has a hard time having respect for me in some ways because we are so fundamentally in conflict over this issue. He doesn’t really show it very much outwardly, but there are little signs of disapproval. And I had to laugh because when Joel was talking about the customer service menu sometimes being defensible as the most effective option, there were times where I wondered if I was picking up on the same slight, unintentional, tone of disapproval because it is so fundamentally against his Fi.
Thank you again for a wonderful podcast! It was a great source of information and really useful to me!
Meghan,
It’s true that effectiveness is important and can require some sacrifices at times. However, over time, the human element is one of those things that can mess up the pretty numbers when it’s not taken seriously enough. I was friends with an ENTJ who was hired to manage a company to get it back on track. He was a badass in meeting and exceeding the numbers, but his lack of emotional intelligence (rather, his lack of utilizing the emotional intelligence he actually had) caused such a tank in morale that the company started suffering in another way. He was fired. And he went into a deep depression over it. He just couldn’t understand why he’d failed when he’d “succeeded.”
If he’d had an NF assistant giving input (to balance Te with F), perhaps he could have implemented his plans WITHOUT making life difficult for everyone else (and, ultimately, himself as well).
The most recent neuroscience is pointing to how, “We are not thinking creatures who feel, but, rather, feeling creatures who think.” (See Dr. Barrett’s new book, How Emotions Are Made.) What your friend knows is that things can get messy in a hurry, and “good” results can suffer in the long run, when the human element is ignored. Often, things go better overall when T and F team up.
I think your example is the perfect cautionary tale. There are a lot of ways this could have been avoided, and teaming up with an F would be a very effective one.
Haha I had the same reaction to Joel on this, and I think you’re right. Haha. I have learned a lot about introverted feeling from listening to Antonia explain a thing and then listening to Joel explain a thing from ostensibly the same angle. Usually it is askew. I am not wanting to point this out to knock Joel (in case you see this!). It reminds me of a good way to manage computer programmers where you have them estimate time on projects and over time you learn whether people are overestimators, underestimators, or bad estimators. If possible you prevent them from looking back or tracking their estimates because you don’t want them attempting to correct for their being, say, an underestimator. It’s cleaner if you instead use the consistency of their bad estimates to plan your sprints!
Listening to Joel explain things Antonia had explained is like this for me. I think it’s truly legitimately valuable to have an enfp and an Entp explain things, even if very often I feel like I am learning how Fi works by watching it fail to clean slice data.
And anyway I think Joel is brave for continually soldiering out alongside Antonia to discuss this stuff because I have seen many an enfp chased away from mbti and totally refusing to believe that like, Ti is a thing.
Which, I can relate, as i was shocked to discover that Fi was a thing. And I definitely didn’t believe it was at first. I just thought it was an excuse. Which is what I presume many Fi users ascribe Ti to being. Just some “tricky argument to avoid the central issue about __the value of individuals or fill in blank_____.” Like joel pointed out in this podcast: Ti can be probably mind blowingly Unfocused on outcome. Fi at least has Te on the other end being like “what works?”
I love, Love, loved this podcast. I enjoy these comparing and contrasting of cognitive functions like this. I have two TPs in my life (ENTP & ESTP), and they love clean data. I feel a close connection to them as an INFJ. I have some friends who are TJs (ISTJs & ENTJ), but understanding them has been more challenging. It’s interesting to see how they don’t share as much data in case someone weaponizes it. That makes total sense to me after observing people in the wild. Thanks for the good podcast guys!