Podcast – Episode 0270 – Why The World Needs Introverted Thinking — Revisited
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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about why now more than ever we need introverted thinking in our world.
In this podcast you’ll find:
- As an ENTP, Antonia’s decision maker is Introverted Thinking “Accuracy” (Ti)
- Accuracy = Finding internal logical consistencies and congruities when making decisions and clean slicing info and making distinctions around different pieces of data and being able to pull upon all of that to make the best decision possible.
- One way to frame a discussion of Ti is by talking about Fi (Introverted Feeling) “Authenticity”
- Fi is about what resonates with you personally. Inner alignment.
- Fi users can hold space for dark, intense emotions.
- The capacity to see the darker motivations in your own heart.
- Ti has a similar function around thoughts.
- Fi can sit with heavy emotion.
- Ti can sit with heavy/difficult thoughts.
- Why the World Needs Introverted Thinking – first podcast
- People don’t see the value of Ti in today’s world
- Emotional aikido – find the emotion you want in the sea of all the emotions
- We have to be able to find the dark thoughts within us and the source of those thoughts
- Logical/rational/analysis: does not equal truth
- Rational is an argument that when seen thru the system which created it makes sense to the system.
- Rationale is the thing we say to ourselves to keep believing the things we want to think.
- People think what they want to think.
- There is a level of agency we are trying to strip away from each other.
- It is extraordinary arrogance to believe we can force someone to think the way we want them to think.
- Ti’s primary job is to make space for the worst thoughts. Like Fi users can make space for the worst intent/motives/feelings people can have.
- We are in a period where we are trying to honor people’s emotions. That’s a good thing.
- Everything everybody does makes complete and total sense to them, or they wouldn’t do it.
- When we hear thoughts that disturb or disgust us, we think we can force it out through social pressure.
- Extraverted Feeling (Fe) is collective thinking based on getting everyone’s needs met.
- Reprogramming can’t happen through shaming. It needs to come about through logic.
- The logic of the new environment rewrites the logic of the old environment.
- Antagonism, shame, and embarrassment don’t help someone rewrite their programming. It only forces them to hide their behavior.
- The script remains, but now the person has to act contrary to the programming which creates dissonance.
- Sometimes we have thoughts that are so persistent that they aren’t easy to dismiss.
- Another form of dissonance occurs when we have a thought that runs contrary to everything else we observe, but for some reason, it is compelling to us.
- We allow the thought to continue to live.
- There are some thoughts we don’t even acknowledge exist, so we never address them. We are afraid of them.
- “Don’t believe everything you think.”
- Our brain has a hard time not believing itself.
- Everyone needs to express their personal truth.
- We start to feel disjointed if we have a truth that lives inside of us that we have no way of articulating.
- Instead of creating an environment where people can share their thoughts, our society has lost its mechanism to address differing thoughts.
- We use shaming and bullying to force thoughts out which only forces them into hiding.
- We still have ‘isms’ because we can’t bully people into thinking differently.
- We are doing ourselves a grave disservice by saying, “Hey, we are about to talk about something you may find uncomfortable. If you don’t want to hear it, feel free to check out.”
- If we don’t allow ourselves or others to articulate what is really going on inside we aren’t addressing the thoughts.
- When we create a culture of continually warning people to seek their safe space we are preventing them from addressing their trauma cognitively.
- One of the services that Ti does is that it reminds the planet that addressing thoughts is as necessary as getting people’s needs met.
- When an individual has a racist thought as opposed to attempting to bully it out of existence, ask why the belief exists.
- The more some Ti users articulate their truth the more hostility they receive.
- Truth is the gift Ti brings to the world.
- Fi gets to feel what it wants to feel and articulate those emotions.
- Ti needs space to think what it wants to think and articulate those thoughts without judgment.
- Expressing thoughts in the outside world can sometimes be all that is needed to change them.
- Thoughts are just as emergent as emotions.
- There is lots of code inside of us that is real and dark but runs contrary to our values, so we never act on it.
- When we fear the articulation of thoughts that we don’t agree with, we only force the thoughts underground.
- Dogpiling thoughts doesn’t do anything except allow horrifying factions to sprout up in dark places.
- “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
- The social censure has made these people with the unacceptable thought find compatibility even though they have nothing else in common.
- People’s lives have been destroyed for articulating things that society finds distasteful.
- People that want to bully other people’s thoughts are making assumptions they are right.
- My truth vs. your truth
- People won’t allow themselves to hear any discourse that opposes their beliefs, so they never bother vetting the accuracy of their own conviction.
- Well done Ti goes over the same ground constantly because there are always pieces of info that may be missing.
- Ti doesn’t take anything for granted.
- Ti is very vigilant and rigorous.
- It wants to be in integrity with all of its thoughts.
- We must open up and teach each other how to have discourse vs. burying thoughts we’ve decided are unpleasant
- Our social structures don’t see an advantage in teaching people to use critical thinking because if we teach them to think for themselves they will start questioning indoctrination.
- So we are losing the ability to think critically.
- We should introduce philosophy, debate, and critical thinking at a young age.
- There is no safe place for us to articulate thoughts to in this world.
- We allow a safe place for emotions but not thoughts.
- Cognitive distortions grow when we allow people to believe everything they feel because “thoughts are concentrated emotions.”
- If we allow people to believe everything they feel those feelings eventually will coalesce into thought and they will believe everything they think.
- Focus on your mind
- Be radically honest with yourself
- Develop your sense of integrity around your thought structure
- Be willing to call BS on yourself
- Stop bullying thoughts you don’t like.
- There is a direct correlation between stress and anxiety, insecurity, cognitive dissonance, and cognitive distortions. They all run in the same group.
- The more distortions you have and the more dissonance you experience, the more there is a fracturing of your mind and your identity which leads to insecurity and anxiety.
- The more congruent your thoughts are, the more at rest you are and more peace you feel.
- The more confidence you feel about how you show up in the world.
- When most people experience clarity, they experience a lessening of tension.
- People lack clarity overall. It’s obvious.
- Stress and anxiety are building up.
- The antidote isn’t getting used to people saying things you don’t agree with and biting your tongue, but developing curiosity.
- You can find common ground with just about anyone.
- If you aren’t attacking someone’s thoughts, they don’t feel the need to defend them.
- Someone may give you a perspective you’ve never considered before.
- Actual harmony is creating a space where everyone can find common ground.
- Build the skill of curiosity
- It doesn’t feel good to question your thoughts, but it has to be done.
- Our dystopian world is hostile to thought.
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Listening to this quite a bit later, but it’s a really good one.
Talking about Antonia’s comment on how Ti is constantly “revisiting old territory,” the analogy I keep envisioning is a landscape which is being shifted & quaked by tectonic activity, where “new information” plugs into the systems of frameworks in a way that “shifts” everything around. As a Ti dom I feel this viscerally in the moment, I learn new things and my brain gets flooded with a subtle “noise” under the surface of amygdala activity and thoughts of… oh wait this doesn’t work the way I thought it did, it’s actually this other way, etc. and so forth.
The most profound thought-shifts that occur with new information are with things I’ve interacted recently; the short-distance bits of the “landscape” I can see immediately, but over a long period of time I’ll get subtle impressions, that if I’m quiet enough to listen to, represent “older” bits of the landscape I’ve encountered in the past; those hills and fields that lie 10 miles away, so to speak. It’s fun to go back in time and think about all the old memories I’ve had, where I’ve been, and think about how different my frameworks and perspectives on “how things worked” back then and it feels quaint. (Ti-Si going on there?)
Brilliant episode. This actually really helped me confirm my type as an INFJ. I have a tendency to bypass Harmony for Accuracy. During the debate between Joel and Antonia, my first thought was that the answer the the problems there were having with each other theories was that the Harmony piece was missing. I felt really validated when Antonia brought the conversation to that context. Thank you for sharing this! As someone who uses Accuracy, a lot of the time people don’t follow my thinking and I get pushback because I forget that the point of all of my introverted thinking is to get peoples needs met.
How to Develop Introverted Thinking — by an Experienced Ti User
So I’d like to make this mini course placed in the comment section for anyone who needs help on this. Though, I’ll primarily have experienced with using Ti with Ne, or occasionally combined with Si. (Ti-Si or Fi-Si is why you sometimes see ITPs or IFPs use numbered lists, where they work to organize their individual judgements on things, as I will be doing now.) I’ll try to adjust this mini course for Se users or maybe even Ni users. Hope this helps.
How to Develop Ti in General :
1. Learn and prevent logical fallacies. Go to the website dataisbeautiful for a list of logical fallacies.
2. I’ll take Antonia’s suggestion, and suggest a formal logic course. See the course, “Logic 101,” on Youtube for an extensive and well explained course on logic.
3. Learn to see things from a detached perspective. If you were giving advice to another person, especially a stranger, with the same situation, what advice would you give?
4. When your thoughts are racing, confused and emotional, slow down somewhat. Take deep breaths, then describe the situation in a more neutral information way. Don’t rush to an opinion yet, just gather information on the subject.
5. Practice journaling, but not to journal emotions as it’s usually for, but to journal neutral observations on things. From reading the book, “How to Think Like Leonardo Da Vinci,” it’s described that in his scientific work, he had observation diaries where he just observed a certain subject, and worked on coming to certain conclusions from it.
6. There’s also Benjamin Franklin’s virtue journaling (See the Art of Manliness’s blog article on his Virtue Journal) where Ti is used to discipline yourself in life. Often people forget the emphasis on individual discipline from logical decisions Ti does because TPs are perceivers, but it is. Te users are very willing to organize others and their external environment, but not themselves, as in having consistent life beliefs (though Fi users often have more consistent life values) often being open to Ni or Si solitary easygoingness, but whatever.
7. Just practice mindfulness to help you calm down enough to think more clearly. As someone dabbling in Buddhism my entire life, I can tell you for sure the Buddha was an INTP, not to mention a 5 (As the website Enneagram Institute mentions him first in the list of famous examples.) Common Buddhist practice though with non-Buddhists is not to convert people, but to introduce them to secular meditation, so I’m going to do that. (Go to the website Palouse Mindfulness for a free organized course, try the Headspace app, or all the various options of free guided meditations on Youtube.) Interestingly enough, if you lurk meditation heavy forums such as /r/meditation or Actualized.org, there have actually been some online polls done that most people there are NTs. I don’t find this surprising at all. Hell, it’s mostly thinkers in general.
How to Develop Ti for Ne Users. (Including SJs)
1. Learn philosophy and how to make formal arguments in philosophy. See on Youtube, “Crash Course Philosophy.” Debate forums like /r/changemymind or debate.org can help.
2. Learn how to spot fake news with Ne! Look for another course on the Crash Course channel that is about navigating the internet.
3. Use quotes to stimulate Ti reflection. Look up famous quotes online, whether from Goodreads or Brainyquotes, then well. . . philosophize what this means to you and how it relates to your everyday life.
How to Develop Ti for Se users. (Including NJs, from what I know from an STP friend.)
1. Use that observation diary mentioned earlier, but for sensory observations, than theoretical ones. Make your own conclusions on everyday things with that. Incorporate pictures, collected items in a category, and so on and on to make conclusions. Strangely enough, looking up “Mindfulness in everyday life techniques” emphasize this type of observational skills to the extreme.
2. Try to become more self aware of your physical body. Interestingly, and probably not coincidentally, meditations like body meditation, or walking meditation emphasizes this again to an extreme. (See Scott Jeffrey’s blog article on standing meditation). Though you can try this in various exercises and sports. For example, when doing an exercise, recognize how the rest of the body helps rather than just the stereotypical body part with it. So if you’re kicking a ball, don’t just focus on the leg, but how pushing your shoulders and hips in with the ball also helps.
3. Just practice making Ti conclusions on everyday experiences regularly during everyday conversation. Use sensory words more. Visual, auditory, touch, smell and taste. When describing your day to someone for example, just work to use words like this more. Try a hands on hobby to describe something with your senses more. Look up a list of hobbies online, and you’ll get what I mean.
I was reminded of a liberal activist friend who lives in Florida. She is always respectful of angry conservative replies to her Facebook posts. When I called her out for offensively attacking and rejecting conservative commenters after Trump’s win, she politely but firmly defended the need to continue. As an INTP, it seems to me we don’t have a choice but to listen. Why did they vote for him, what values, thoughts, reasoning came in to play? You simply cannot refuse to know this, much less push them to close themselves off. But I guessed that a call for curiosity wouldn’t be enough and so I tried to marry it with compassion in my response to her.
Perhaps there is some Ti-Fe interplay in my mind, but that is how it presents itself. There is a tender feeling that accompanies listening to the darkest thoughts others might have, and especially my own. When I started my first journal in my late teens it was the one rule I laid out at the outset: honesty and forthrightness above all else. All shall be accepted. To do that is a mercy when just voicing them would incur the anger or disgust of others. Sure, sometimes it is a kind of fearless, greedy curiosity needing to know what’s in that dark corner, but when I’m afraid of that truth, when I have an inkling that it’s tied to pain, then it’s a kindly curiosity. That is the type the social sphere is missing most.
As a worker & a tertiary Ti user- Questioning is not necessarily complaining/criticizing or indicative of a lack of confidence. It is not argumentative to add additional information to a conversation. These behaviours are about seeking or providing clarity. Likewise, I think it’s very important that kids (of all ages!) be curious & that university students debate. How else do we all learn & grow?
I’m always hungry for Antonia Ti talk and I feel like the ratio of Ti defense to Fi defense in PH over the past few years has just moved from like 90/10 for Fi to 80/20 for Fi, so thanks for making the podcast.
Literally everything Antonia says is so incredibly crisp and clean I’m just amazed. It does cause me to resent Joel’s interruptions but that also just reminds me I still haven’t dealt with my tendency to dismiss Fi.
I learned something really interesting when Joel was mentioning the idea of it being somewhat frustrating to have to revisit racism, sexism, etc, —what he was pointing to was the idea in society of “we’ve already had these discussions, and that is why we won’t discuss them again.” And he said “do we really have to revisit?” And Antonia said yes, that’s what Ti did, and Joel said “wow,” and I was thinking how beautifully true that is that yes, you revisit again and again, and as Antonia went on to say, you basically have to constantly scan for error given new information. And then I realized right then: how Joel represents the frustration over having to revisit ugly thoughts is how I feel about having to revisit nonsensical feelings with others which were processed last week, last month, and last year. Because I don’t hold space well for the idea of having a feeling once it’s been understood that it’s not a very useful one? So anyway, I learned something interesting there. I consider myself a rather emotionally inviting and kind ENTP, but yeah it tends to exhaust me to discover a friend revisiting a feeling he or she already processed before. But perhaps they need to do that for an analogous reason to the need for Ti to rescan.
Wow, this podcast was brilliant! I currently am dealing with thoughts i can’t speak about but found this very helpful. I dont know if i feel ready to dissect them currently but i KNOW now that i will be able to get through them. Hopefully what antonia said can spread like wildfire so we can start to understand each other better. I’m gonna need to let my unconcious process a lot of what was said because thats what i do with complicated information. My one question is how would a person try to use introverted thinking when its not strong in their stack. I tested as an ENFJ on your site and many others, possible infj too but still, Ti is undeveloped in me or almost childish when i try to use it. I feel like i could use a well versed Ti therapist lol. But the therapists i have had dont seem accepting enough to hear the thoughts that i fight against. Thank you for the podcast! This one was definitely a gem 🙂
Hi Antonia,
I totally resonated with you and the understanding of Ti. I recently watched the MJ documentary on Netflix (and I’m only using this example 1 because Joel brought it up but also because it helped me capture the reasons why he “did what he did”) When you were talking about the dark thoughts, Carl Jung came to mind. We all have a dark and a light side to ourselves, the balance, the Ying and the yang. After reading Jung’s work I believe we can’t necessarily and fully ignore our dark side, but as you said we must acknowledge it and sort of filter it out and realize that these thoughts are “bad” or “good” not based on what society has told us but based on how we feel. Similar to the iceberg analogy that has been brought up many times. We accept our light side, in other words, the part of the iceberg that we all see, but below it is a dark cold piece of ice and I believe the deeper we dig (not act, but get familiar with) into the dark side the more “balanced” we are. And it is my belief that with balance comes forth our best creativity (hence MJ’s successful creative career). Not saying it was right (if he did what he did) but he was not afraid to go into that dark part of himself and one way or the other he rationalized why “it was ok”.
-Jessica (INFJ)
This podcast was a total game changer for me! Leading with Fe I really don’t like to hold space for difficult unharmonious thoughts. But your in depth explanation of why this is so necessary really got me thinking and I was able to get into some of those ‘dark thoughts’ I am having.
And also, I really love to listen to you guys having such an intuitive conversation, throwing all kinds of metaphors in there. Thanks 😉
Loving your podcast all the way from Kenya!
Can y’all turn this into a series, like “Why The World Needs xx”… and then do one show for each function? Especially the introverted functions.
It would definitely be a hit.
This was a great topic. I love the introverted thinking and introverted feeling perspectives you guys brought to the conversation. This is exactly the kind of communication we need to be having as a society. Thank you for doing this!
This episode resonated so much with me. I’m going to have to listen to it again because my pattern recognition is telling me that there’s something under the surface that I missed. I think it was something in the back and forth between Joel and Antonia. I’m an INTP married to an ISFP, so I think there was some clues to my own relationship hidden in the subtext.
As far as struggling as a Ti user and the timeliness of this episode, I made a comment on the last podcast that as an INTP I’m struggling with how to refine my ideas in an environment that is either hostile to the incubation process or that takes my original idea and runs with it before it’s ready. In fact, I lost some friendships a couple of years ago due to these, so it’s been a struggle to keep Fe and Si from teaming up and voting Ne off the island.
For me, I’ve always really rejected the cultish nature of tribalism. I feel like that in those sort of contexts people and ideas are put up as beyond criticism and beyond reproach. I have had people express that I can’t really criticize X because X did something completely different that was positive or someone else did it first. To that I say, no, I will criticize whatever I think needs to be criticized. I find this especially true with political ideologies, which is why I have found myself over the last few years completely out of alignment with any of them, especially the one I was raised in.
I definitely feel that the way society is structured doesn’t provide space to have thoughts or even ask questions that might not intrinsically be harmful.
One concern I always have concerning conversations about privilege is how it is interpreted. 99% of the time I don’t think people who bring up concepts like white privilege mean to use it as an attack. But, a lot of the times it feels like an attack or people at least act like it is trying to discredit them and their accomplishments and the struggles they have overcome.
And I have admittedly felt this too. I resent the idea that anyone might even so much as to think I’ve only reached the point I have because of my race. It discounts the struggles I’ve had and the hard work and effort I’ve genuinely put into life. Albeit, no one who truly knows me or knows what I’m capable of would sincerely think that. But I think the line of thought “Oh, you’re only here because you’re white.” is toxic whether it is a real thought or is only perceived by the person who thinks they are the target.
It’s kind of a push and pull with me because I understand the typical utility of privilege and how it shows fundamental disadvantages. But the negative connotation of “Oh you’re only here because you’re white,” is deeply disturbing to me because it ignores so many nodes in the system such as talent and hard work and skill. It also seems to minimize other ways in which someone could have the odds of society stacked against them. Maybe the person uses a wheelchair to get around or maybe they have a learning disability or maybe they have a chronic disease or a mental illness. I’ve personally had my own difficulties and disadvantages that certainly hurt my trajectory despite being white, and I worked to overcome those.
Then again, I do feel like I am not allowed to express these concerns of privilege being used or seeming to be used as a means of delegitimization because I’m a white woman. As I type this, my brain is literally circling around ways people could try to attack me for this. And I don’t actually care if they do, I’m lucky to have developed fairly thick skin over the course of my life. But, that’s negativity and negative energy I’d rather not have thrown in my direction. I’ll take criticism, but if it’s not constructive and is an attack instead, I can’t value it.
But these concerns make perfect sense to me and I have reasoning behind the concerns. Even though I know this isn’t often the intent, sometimes intent doesn’t translate into impact. And I find this more legitimate as a thought since I’ve repeatedly seen people react in such a manner when I didn’t read the intent as to degrade, only to point out a macro-level disparity.
And I also agree critical thinking should be taught to children. I think the lack of this skill is what holds society back a lot of the times and why we can never collectively seem to solve problems.
Hi Danielle! I think it’s brave to be so honest about a topic that is so prickly. I agree we don’t have good forums to have honest conversations like this and that’s a shame. Topics like this are dense and complicated and touchy. Our culture is used to protecting people’s feelings and that usually means staying silent on important issues. Current call out culture doesn’t help when people have genuine questions. I want to respond to what you’ve stated and hopefully clarify some points 🙂
From my personal experience privilege exists and it comes in many varieties, white is just a common and problematic one. Privilege is especially tricky because it’s unspoken. No one ever says “hey this is because you’re white (or straight, or cisgender, or able bodied)” wink wink. Whiteness is a benefit and if you find people of color to have honest conversations with you’d find stories from their lives to confirm this. Just like straightness is a benefit, being an American is, heck being right handed is a benefit. You touched on another type of privilege and you’re absolutely right, disabled vs able bodied. A person who is disabled faces huge obstacles an able bodied person faces. Now imagine if they were black AND disabled. That’s an intersection and it’s where multiple factors affect people and create even more obstacles. Privilege doesn’t mean someone has it easier necessarily, it just means that certain things aren’t an additional obstacle or barrier. For example I also have white privilege and it benefits me every day. People trust me, find me capable, intelligent, perceive that “I belong”. I can rent an Airbnb with no trouble, have never been unduly stopped by police, never been followed in a store. If something bad happened, that thing would be independent, my race wouldn’t compound the issue. If my car broke down someone would stop, if I had to knock on a door someone would trust me to come in, if I needed a hospital they would believe I was in pain if I said so. That isn’t a guarantee for black folks and other poc. It’s not that you get extra for being white, you just don’t get less than. Thank you for bringing up such an important and misunderstood topic. I hope we can find places where discussions like this are had with civility and a focus on learning and understanding 🙂
~Allie
Thank you, Allie, for taking an alternative perspective on this subject with civility. 😀
Whenever I think of the subject of privilege I think of my thought process if I were to, say, have weed on me. “I’m a middle aged white woman in a minivan – I’m probably going to be fine.” That’s a clear and undeniable case of privilege.
I think the challenge comes when people stay with cause/effect thinking instead of systems thinking. As a single node in the system, it can either be a big node or a small node depending. But it’s rare when individuals take the time to really suss out its contextual impact. For many people privilege doesn’t exists at all (or is meaningless), or it’s the only thing that matters and is a trump card in debate. Makes it tough to have a real conversation around it.
-A-
Feels a tiny bit like Joel is trying to rescue Antonia at the moment… I know it’s your show. The honesty you bring is always helpful. However I would encourage you to be careful about trying to build up A’s self-esteem through the podcast. I think your listeners know this stuff. I really value the show. Just letting you know.
“I think your listeners know this stuff” a bit presumptuous.
I really didn’t see it as “protecting” personally. I thought Joel was mostly trying to clarify and add more depth to the conversation
I hope you’re right, and my growing need to address this topic is vanity. I look around at a world that is hostile to undesirable thoughts without a mechanism to process them through and am increasingly worried. Fingers crossed it’s a personal complex and not a society-wide challenge. That would honestly be the best scenario.
Thanks for the comment. 🙂
-A-
Will, It is interesting to me that you felt Joel was trying to rescue Antonia’s ego. I interpreted his clarifications as ensuring that the gravity of what they were trying to communicate was grasped. It is easy for people to get stuck on the surface of examples rather than thinking about the theme. I know I do it- sometimes I cannot get over the use of a word even when I know it’s not what the person meant! (Annoying 10yr old loop).
As an INTP I have found that the way I communicate is often misinterpreted- especially when I’m sharing “my truths”. I am fortunate to have my sister (ISFP) who has taken the time to understand what I ACTUALLY mean. She is able to translate to others when she can tell I’m not being received the way I am trying to be. It is a gift to have someone with in-depth knowledge about how other people will interpret what we say, and is willing to advocate for our ideas.
The focus on introverted thinking might be in part an ego thing- but who of us doesn’t spend a ton of our time focusing on our own functions and how they fit into/interact with the world? I personally felt a sense of validation listening to this podcast, as I’m sure you do when they discuss your functions.
Ego is not the death of humanity, without it we would loose a beautiful part of what it is to be alive.
Antonia. Spot on, children should be taught the skills they need to tackle the world, they need to be able to question the things they are told, realise that everyone has their own agenda and that things aren’t always what they seem. Also the skills to figure out why people act the way the do and be able to understand others better, maybe then they will avoid following the propaganda of cults, religious groups and governments.
Maybe those who self-harm will be able to see a safe route they can navigate to their way out if their situation.