Podcast – Episode 0279 – Why The World Needs Introverted Intuition
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In this episode, Joel and Antonia go on a journey of discovery where they showcase the need for positively expressed Introverted Feeling in today’s world.
In this podcast you’ll find:
- The Wire (HBO)
- Introverted Intuition (Ni) “Perspectives”
- Ni is a perceiving process
- Dominant function for INTJs & INFJs
- Copilot function for ENTJs & ENFJs
- Real understanding without the depth of intimacy that Fi feels.
- Ni feels objective. Understanding for understanding sake without empathy.
- Being able to understand someone is different from validating their feelings.
- Compassion can be the result, but it’s not the mechanism Ni uses when understanding another person’s perspective.
- Ni gives us the ability to study things dispassionately
- NTJs are more likely to look at everything in concepts of systems.
- NFJs are more likely to look at people as systems.
- But both can play both sides.
- It’s about removing the individual’s personal feelings, so those feelings don’t create bias.
- To get underneath what is happening
- Fully clocked Ni is a simulation of Se which observes reality as it comes.
- Instead of outside world sensory info (Se), Ni simulates that process internally.
- Entire realities created within itself.
- If some of our language around Ni sounds like Ti and Fi, remember that T/F are judging functions. N/S are learning functions.
- Ti is looking for truth
- Fi is looking for intent/desire
- Ni doesn’t want anything. It follows its internal bliss and allows things to surface as it will.
- It has the intent of insight, but it doesn’t want anything. It’s just observing.
- Ni is captured by simulated reality.
- Si has a past orientation. Impressions built over time. Experiential.
- Ni doesn’t have to experience something. It takes what it understands about sensory stimuli and creates simulations of reality.
- Why does the world need Ni?
- Black Mirror (Netflix) looks at how technology advances to dystopian futures.
- Ni developed to assist survival situations.
- What does it look like if this happens?
- Ni gives us the importance of consequences.
- Ni can run the simulation and share it in a way that others can understand.
- What will happen down the line if I knock this domino over here?
- Ni taps into the depth of imagination.
- Ni looks at the fundamental principles of the human mind.
- How do minds operate? What are the patterns that the human mind tends to attach?
- Fi: “Whatever is most personal is most universal.”
- Ni: “The macro reflects the micro, and the micro reflects the macro.”
- We have a lot of disagreements right now; Ni can help bridge the gap to create a simulated shared reality.
- For Fi, it understands the power of narrative, and if it doesn’t dive deep into its intent and motivation, it can start to manipulate the power of narrative to get what it wants.
- Getting to that dispassionate place is hard for NJs (especially NFJs).
- NJs mind has given them a place to go to create psychological distance from people.
- Ni can keep shifting perspectives until it finds one it likes.
- “I’ll just find a perspective where I’m happy.”
- What crosses supports you.
- All of our strengths can be turned against ourselves.
- Ni can get so lost in its simulations that it doesn’t bring its gifts to the world. It just stays in a place that isn’t good because it can make peace with it… for a time.
- The world needs sophisticated Ni to keep the gift of being able to see multiple perspectives and run simulations of worlds that haven’t been created.
- The world needs Ni.
- We are entering a more complex world. We cannot know what is going to happen.
- We aren’t going to make it as the human race unless we have a future perspective showing us where we are heading.
- Ni in the backseat can still give you a future paced viewpoint.
- ESTP: “Some people don’t know they’re alive unless they’re in pain.”
- They understand that people come with certain mindsets.
- Fi can hold space for the darkness of the heart.
- Ti can hold space for people’s darker thoughts.
- Ni can hold space for people’s mindsets that aren’t serving them.
- Si can hold space for people with dark pasts.
- Ni taps into how we talk to ourselves.
- Ni users love NLP: How our minds construct reality.
- ePrime
- Inner dialogue is not the same as inner narrative.
- Tap into the inner dialogue and the way you use words to describe your reality.
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INFJ here, also 5W4. First off, thank you for the work you do. I deeply appreciate who you two are as a couple and individuals ❤️❤️. Thank you.
Personally I’ve always had a hard time reconciling the two parts of me, one is empathetic to the point of physically feeling other peoples feelings just by being in their proximity. And the other part of me, is objective, cold, and without an agenda—just sitting there like a judge taking it all in and processing all the implications.
I feel like my copilot has been over developed compared to my driver. Fe is socially acceptable as a woman who grew up religiously. But Ni? And being a 5 on the Enneagram as well… Definitely still learning how to accept/appreciate and make use of my driver. *big sigh
Episodes like this one helps!!
wow. Intj’s seem to blow up the comments the most huh?! Well, ummm here’s another INTJ. Me.
I just thought I’d let y’all know that you did a great job diving deep into the introverted intuition. I have just recently started learning about the Myers Briggs and the cognitive functions, and your podcast has helped a lot…
Id like to share on some of my perspectives but I feel that’s useless after reading the comments…
But I will anyways.
The fact that you emphasized that it is a perceiving function is great. I have always been extremely psychoanalytic. And I thought everyone was until I learned about the cognitive functions. Enough comments have been made already on the stress this brings due to knowing what’s coming before it comes… This becomes a huge issue when you care too much about someone. But I’ve been a lot more careful lately to just enjoy the time I spend with the people I care about rather than worry about the future (my simulated future that could quite possibly be wrong but usually isn’t unless I purposefully make it so.) This has really helped.
Another thing I’d like to share is that I’ve been able to implicate the intuition and pattern recognition into beneficial ways to work around issues in the work place. Ex. (I will wait till lunch, and then run up to a coworker with half eaten food in my hand to illude a sense of emergency so that they are more likely to do the task that they may have not wanted to do in the first place and would have put off for too long.) Small things like this have made a huge difference in productivity.
It’s cool to see that I’m not alone in this world of all the other types.
I would like to say how interesting I think it is that a lot of the comments are triggered INFJ’s. And all this being due to the fact that they took this whole empathy thing personally. It’s just a podcast meant to dive into a cognitive function… And they even said that they don’t use this function but they will try their best…
Personally, futurist jobs seem to be a really Ni type of job, where someone has to focus on foreseeing what could happen through the future in society and how to prepare for it. This can be done by seeing trends in data (Te) or seeing possible moral issues, especially surrounding new technology (Fe). This article can tell you a lot. (https://ideas.ted.com/three-ways-to-think-about-the-future/)
Though when you look at people who gather the information around futurist ideas by interviewing Ni users and spread it around, it’s usually Ne users. Often there’s this Ni-Ne in futurist jobs where the Ni users think of the outcomes from gathering evidence on seeing teams of scientific evidence (Te) or seeing trends from doing massive interviews on the culture of a population (Fe), and then the Ne users spread the ideas to as many people as possible. Some Ne users do this by explaining the technology in the simplest way possible (Ti) (The blog WaitButWhy is a good example or by expressing their emotions on new causes such as the LGBT or neurodiversity through art (Fi) (The channel Button Poetry is full of this, or Ted-Ed’s channel series on poetry.)
Hello there! I follow you on Instagram, Spotify, as well as your Facebook profile and I have to again reiterate that I am thrilled to have found such communicative human being who are very apt at labeling and explaining the cognitive functions. I am an INTJ and I have to say that my introverted intuition often leaves me feeling a little crazy. Something my husband said is very perfect for explaining it, just because you know what’s going on doesn’t mean that people like being told about themselves. Its a hard line to have long term pattern recognition because you often pick up on the subconscious happenings before the actual social happenings. I find that I can feel when someone isn’t telling me something simply by the shift in their word usage or tone or even the amount of communication being received. This often leads to me being paranoid or picking up on something that someone hasn’t had the ability, be it ego or processing time, to communicate yet. Sometimes they don’t want to communicate it at all, which makes things even more difficult, I find. I wish the different perspective factors of personality was a more widely known topic, it would help the empathy for a lot of SPs that I know who always seem to look at me like I’m crazy.
As an intj, I just want to say you missed the fact that Ni makes me feel very scatter brained! But you really hit the nail when you said we have space for dark mind spaces.
Reading through the comments on Ni and empathy, I have some further thoughts on it as an INTJ. Empathy, by definition, is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I would argue that dominant Ni users are strong on the understanding end of empathy, but sometimes short on the sharing feelings end (depending upon the auxiliary function); while dominant feelers (especially Fi) are strong on the sharing feelings end but may be short on the understanding end. My personal experience with my ENFP husband and a close INFP friend is that I find it really easy to figure out where a feeling or thought came from for them. I can see how the environment and events interacted with their system to produce the thought or feeling (not always, but most of the time). However, sharing the feeling can be difficult, even if I feel badly for somebody. It is really easy for me to respond in a way that comes off as analytical. Conversely, I find that I get a lot of sympathy from Fi users and I can easily tell that they care; but sometimes they equate my system with their own and misidentify the thought or feeling or the motive behind an action because they are seeing it from their own view point.
On seeing another’s point of view: This has sometimes been literal for me. For example, when my son was small he had some educational testing. There were concerns because when he was asked to draw what he did at lunch; he drew something that looked like a horizontal ladder. I knew immediately that he had been hanging upside down from the monkey bars, looking up at them.
Also, do other Ni users find themselves looking at their own shifting historical perspective. As in, “How would my 10 year old self have looked at this information?”
I agree with your first paragraph, Bethany. That is my view/experience as well.
I’ve been really enjoying this series! And this episode in particular brought up some questions in my mind regarding functions that are not in our stack and our abilities to relate to them. As someone who does not have Ni in my stack at all, is Ni mostly something to observe, support and appreciate in others who have it, but not necessarily strive to ‘work on’ in myself? (Same question can be asked for any of the four functions not in our stack or car). And along those same lines, I’ve been curious as to whether an intuitive in general has better access to both intuitive functions over a sensor (and vice versa with sensing). For instance does an ENTP have a closer tie and ability to access Ni over an ISFJ because they are an intuitive dominant, despite Ni being in neither stacks?
Several days after listening to this podcast I still find myself thinking about the comments on rhis podcast process about Ni and empathy.
Antonia and Joel did mention that Ni is a learning function so it’s doesn’t really attach value to things. But so are all the other perceiving functions, right?
So why is Ni being singled out when it comes to the lack of emotional resonance? Is it because unlike the other perceiving functions, it is more intrusive? And that when someone steps into another’s perspective there is the expectation that the action comes with empathy or some kind of action?
Is it correct to say that perspectives users don’t necessarily have to pair up with their copilot in order to appear like they really understand others? And is this a path of growth, to grow the copilot and with INTJs perhaps tap into the tertiary?
I really hope we can revisit this in the future. Not necessarily why the world needs introverted intuition but empathy and cognitive functions.
For anyone’s interest here is a reddit post in the MBTÌ subreddit. Read the comments. It’s spectacular how they show the different needs when it comes to Fi and Fe resonance. Interestingly one INTJs comments round similar to Joel’s in this podcast.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/c1jwr0/infjs_how_do_you_get_people_to_open_up_to_you/
As an INTJ I have realized that my intuition allows me to understand motives people have and scripts that people run. One example is with my INFJ boyfriend. I have learned that he might have an emotional response to something, but I don’t. Instead I am able to side step the emotions by going to an analysis of why a person may behave the way they did. Typically I come up with a perspective that he had never thought of and it typically makes sense to him and eliminates the strong emotional response.
I think an important note that I have learned as an intj, particularly with my intp brother, is that my ability to accurately simulate variables in a situation is naturally limited by the information and data I know and am actively considering. When I am discussing analyses with my brother often times I will come up with a reasonable simulation and discuss it with him and then he will bring up a data point that he thinks is important that I didn’t necessarily consider or weight as heavily. The introduction of that information will then often change key elements of the simulation. Each time my simulation was a reasonable projection from the information I was considering, but sometimes because thinking about all the nuanced data points isn’t my strength as much, it may limit the actual validity of the simulation.
Hello, INTJ here, I’ve listened to your podcasts for a few months now, I think this one is the best you’ve done at describing Ni. Some thoughts –
– I’m trying to understand what you mean by “rewiring the code in your head” when you describe Ti. As a non-Ti user, it sounds really similar to how you describe Ni as “rewriting your mindset towards something”. Maybe a concrete example could help?
– consequences is a good way to think about Ni. Note – Ni doesn’t attach judgement to consequences, they just are what the are. Maybe outcomes is a better word without connotations.
– one integral part of Ni you forgot to mention this time around is the distillation process. After you see things from all perspectives, you understand it in it’s essence.
– to give a more common example of unhealthy Ni: you see two data points making a pattern and suddenly you’re 30 years into the future, oh god these are the consequences, I MUST ADDRESS THE SITUATION IMMEDIATELY or worse, I resign myself to this fate. They don’t frame it as a one of many possibilities like Ne does, it’s a strong belief that THIS EXACT SCENARIO WILL HAPPEN SHOULD WE CONTINUE DOWN THIS PATH. Most of the time though it’s is making a mountain out of a mole Hill, the 3rd data point will disprove your theory. Immature NJs are known for being control freaks for this reason.
– for the skeptics in the room… When I first heard about it I thought the whole thing about seeing perspectives without judgement and being able to predict behaviors was bunk. Then I changed teams and my work became a lot more ppl focused, and suddenly I realized that no one else was picking up on things that seemed patently obvious to me! It was crazy! After meetings they would discuss things like why do you think X said this or what should we do now and I’m just like, wait were we not in the same meeting? It’s obvious what they meant!
I realize now I grew up and worked with a lot of other INTJs…lol.
As an INTJ, I think a key weakness of being Ni dominant for me is that I can get really lost in other perspectives if I don’t have enough alone time. I’m am known for saying everyone’s actions are logical given their presuppositions. As part of understanding a perspective in a really deep and thorough way, I find that I sometimes “try it on” in real life. The metaphorical “walk a mile in someone else’s shoes” blurs into actual reality so I can really see through their eyes. This is where the inner world and outer world can blend and I can get lost. It’s kind of like going undercover too long and getting lost in your new identity. The going undercover part is exhilarating and full of juicy insights, but there is no one I report back to and no one who knows I’ve gone undercover, and since I have done it so subconsciously, it is easy to lose myself for a time. Sometimes I need someone (or myself) to pull you out. I think this is where Fi can really help the INTJ, because we really need to tap into that to help us remember what our own perspective is and negative emotions are the cue. I think we can sometimes struggle to make a judgment about what our perspective should be when relying too heavily on Ni. Paired with Te, what is effective can also be to mirror or complement the personality of whoever you are with because this makes the interactions easier. This can even be quite sustainable (not with spouses and families), but it will ultimately make the INTJ unhappy and unfulfilled in relationships because they are not getting the chance to be themselves and valued for who they are. It is very easy for the INTJ to ignore their own feelings as they dispassionately examine and choose perspectives. I am not sure how this works out for the INFJ.
Hello, high Ti user here. I thought I’d explain Ti to you, though I use it with Ne, so it might be different for how people use it with Se.
I think what is meant by rewiring “the code in your head” with Ti is the code of what is true or not. That is, it’s passing judgement on the accuracy of the situation. Remember, Ni is a perceiving function that often focuses on the long term outcome of the situation, while Ti on the other hand can be used with both Ne and Se. Ti is not perceiving anything, but exploring different perspectives, whether in exploring new ideas with Ne or new sensory information with Se, and then recognizing the validity of which source is worthy of logical trust.
The difference between the use of Ti and Se with Ni and Te is obvious so I’ll focus with comparing your INTJness with Ti and Ne. Though before I give an example, what I’d like to emphasize is that both the INTP and INTJ enjoy solving logical problems, but with different approaches. In problem solving, there are two distinct stages. That is, defining the problem and thinking of organized solutions around the problem. Ti specializes in the first, and Te focuses on the second.
Example :
There is a business situation where sales seem to be lowering suddenly for some unknown reason.
One INTJ in a meeting works with this by noticing the pattern of how the system of how people are working with Ni and works to figure out a solution with Te. The INTJ says, “I noticed the pattern that all of you have a habit of not taking account of sales progress in each stage of marketing, and just describe it with vague statements like, “It’s going great.” This is going to lead to disastrous consequences. Get your act together.”
The INTP, who seems to be doodling stick figures of a dinosaur shooting out laser eyes at Godzilla, might not look like it, but is actually listening to all the ideas in the meeting. INTP uses Ti to judge that INTJ’s idea was right, and then adds even more possibilities to figure out the root cause of this. INTP says, “I think INTJ was right. ESTP salesman who said it was because we haven’t charmed the customers enough doesn’t make sense, and ENFJ manager who says we’re all just trying our best is not cutting it. I’m convinced it’s because people are hiding something because they don’t want to let down ENFJ. So anyone. . . have anything they want to share?”
INTJ nods, then uses more Te to organize an action plan for everything. “ISTJ, you better record this thing for everyone to know. I say we need to not just make interviews of how front line employees are doing, but how middle and high management are doing.” INFP graphic design marketer is already drawing something to emphasize emotional the metaphorical failure we have in our sales for ISTJ to put into the announcement e-mail.
INTP suggests more ideas to add with Ne, “We should try one of those ideas I heard, I mean, was it from Google or something? I forget. But basically, when they allowed one day a week for employees to allow freedom to explore any new risky projects, they want, sales rose. I could use a day like t— I mean, all of us could benefit from a day where everyone can use the entrepreneurial spirit to challenge the status quo.”
INTJ needs more confirmation with Te, “Where did that data come from?” ISTJ looked it up on his phone and showed INTJ, “Oh, it came from this study.”
ENFJ says, “I think all of your ideas have potential, but remember, we should all let ourselves take turns to say our feelings about this in this meeting.” ESTP groans. “ESTP. . . ,” ENFJ says. ESTP quiets down. “Also, INFP, we’d love to hear more from you! Okay, that’s enough time for our meeting now. Let’s continue this meeting this coming Friday. I’m proud of all of you!”
Hi Antonia and Joel,
I love your podcast, it’s where discovered that I’m an INFJ and normal. 😉 I also wanted to comment on this episode about Joel mentioning that Ni users dont use their emphaty when listening to others venting. As an emapth and highly sensitive person, I am so grateful for that function coming naturally detached from all emotions, because ; for me, it would be to much and I am glad that I can decide whether I will use empathy after I feel how it’s going to impact me.
Thank you for the podcast. I loved it. I’m an INTJ. I would agree that Ni is cold and objective. And I love that it is. It comes to the table with no agenda, which I find refreshing.
Since you asked, people tend to comment on my Ni in the form of long-term predictive capabilities. I’ve said many things that people have dismissed only to see them become a reality years down the road. (Of course, it doesn’t stop them from dismissing the next prediction…)
One thing I particularly appreciated was your discussion of understanding or almost sensing reality without having to experience it. I’m a writer and do this ALL THE TIME. I love it. It’s almost better than living out the reality. I can add in nuance, color, action, etc. and experience it fully within my own mind. Years ago I created several hundred Pinterest boards. Someone (an Si dominant) asked me what I planned to do with them. (The majority of them evoke a common sentiment – the same shade of blue in a myriad of settings, the same quality of light throughout the natural environment, etc.) I said that I plan to “walk through them” on a regular basis. They open a specific door in my mind and I can stay there. Sometimes it’s for writing purposes: to take me to the place where I need to be in order to write a specific scene or character. Other times, it’s just for me. She listened and repeated, “but what do you plan to do with them?” She’s nice, but she doesn’t get it. For an Ni, the open door, the imaginative ability to create and to dwell in that mental space is an end in and of itself. I don’t need to do anything with it.
I am an Infj. I think system thinking & running simulations go hand in hand. This is vocabulary to describe what is already happening for me.
I am able to identify an emergent, and then identify particular nodes of importance. Starting with myself, and then moving out.
Self-care could be an emergent. Throughout the day different nodes could come to light. Different mindsets of people could be identified. Ways of coping with and adjusting to people could be different nodes Out of this there could be new emergents, & so on.
Hi Antonia and Joel, I’m a little confused, not about what you said in either podcast of introverted intuition and introverted feeling, but about which one is more dominant in me! I thought I was an INFP, but your explanation on introverted intuition resonated with me as well. I totally look at new technology that comes out and see the possibilities in terms of misuse. I love dystopian fiction and connecting how actions now could end up with much different outcomes. Are there any particular questions I can ask myself to see better what functions are my more dominant ones? Thanks!
Hi-I just want to make a note here. With respect, you’re objectively not right about the empathy issue. I can tell you that as an INFJ. In fact I do believe you know that INFJs in particular are some of the most empathetic folks, which makes sense because of Fe, of course; you’ve spoken of this many times on your podcasts.
INFPs and ENFPs also do not always come across as empathetic, to note–the less healthy ones can seem quite self-absorbed. As a typologist, many non-Fi types have repeatedly spoken to me about being so confused by how burned they have been by less healthy Fi users precisely because of this. Now, I firmly believe that lack of empathy isn’t what’s actually happening in most of those cases for Fi. What’s happening is the Fi “still waters run deep” phenomenon. The empathy is on the inside and not always spilling over with facial expressions, etc. This is similar with some Ni issues for people who have a strong Ni w/o having integrated their second function–but interestingly, INFJs in particular can actually on the whole much more expressive emotionally than Fi users. Because Fe. Again, you’ve all talked about this re: Fe a lot on your podcast. You helped me learned it.
What’s happening here is a failure to understand the internal experience vs. the external manifestation. Not everyone expresses empathy in the same manner, so I believe your analysis here is a bit of a subjective blindspot in thinking that the way Fi expresses empathy is the CORRECT way. But it’s not–it’s just one way.
I say this with playfulness, but: surely you cannot believe that at least ENFJs do not express empathy really openly. 🙂
Even with INTJs: I have known many very personally and have probed their internal experiences to try to understand what’s beneath that confusing exterior. What’s going on for many of them is that the feel so strongly that they PRECISELY need to defend against it w/ headiness and intellectualism. Perhaps this is more relevant to the type 5 enneagram structure but it’s a very similar internal experience, according to the INTJs who have confided in me.
At the end of the day, empathy is a human trait and birthright. While some people have more immediate access to it than others, it’s ultimately not related to type, it’s related to level of health. Check out the Buddha: probably a type 5 INTJ whose empathy has been stronger than almost all other humans who have ever existed.
Thanks for listening!
I’m not sure exactly what you’re referencing. I don’t always remember what’s in the podcast, can you be clearer what is objectively not right? Thanks. 🙂
-A-
Antonia if I may, and I don’t mean to speak for Carolyn. I think she’s referring to what Joel said about his INTJ friends not really empathizing with him, for example when he would talk about a past emotional challenge such as feeling jealous about something, and he felt incredibly understood but not empathized with as he would do or has experienced empathy from others.
It’s typical for many INTJs to understand how someone feels and their perspective that made them feel that way but they wouldn’t generally say something empathetic like “I’m sorry you had to go through that, that must of been really hard to deal with Joel.”
They may say “Yeah I can see how you’d feel that way, I’ve felt jealous too, we as humans tend to share universal emotions and feelings Joel, so you’re not alone in your experience.” The expressions of understanding are usually coming from a place of logic, not so much emotion as with Fe. That pesky Te has a way of filtering our sense of empathy or emotion and having it sound more like problem solving, or some kind of advice as we may fill someone’s need to feel validated with perhaps a story of a similar experience, or a reference of some kind to illustrate what we see in our minds.
If you want to measure or gauge an INTJs level of empathy watch what they do or watch what happens after they do something. Their empathy is felt by them and they do as Carolyn said empathize with someone’s pain but they tend to take action to resolve the pain versus talk about it. They’re the ones bringing medicine for a sick person, or loaning money to a friend to fix their car so they can get to work, or they take brain scans of people to prove that cognitive functions actually exist so that the MBTI isn’t seen as pseudo science, but more so as neuroscience. They find problems to solve, and it’s why they tend to listen so much to negatives or even go looking for the things that cause pain in the world, so that they can relieve a burden or heal a wound by way of action. They know inherently that ruminating on something solves nothing. They are much more linear than process thinkers.
Trying to use Fi as a vehicle for empathy, and have it come out as a Te action is hard to maintain especially when it’s in speech form.
So we will explain that “yes a woman will try to make you jealous intentionally, by talking to other dudes that you may think in your male mind are good looking and you get triggered. They do this to get you to take some sort of validating action to assuage their insecurity that they are wanted and desired. It’s immature and it’s a mind game, that doesn’t need to be played and you should tell the offending party that you won’t tolerate that level of disrespect.”
If that doesn’t work to snap him out of it, that’s where our empathy starts to run on fumes, and we get irritated and go on the offensive, so then we quickly turn into the sensor and would give him a piece of our mind.
We may say something to the effect of ” Hey Joel, enough of the ruminating, it’s in the past you can do nothing about it, you traded up when you found Antonia, you’ve got a sexy ENTP at home and you’re bitching about someone in the distant past, who gives a $#@!!, that chick from the past is a worthless piece of $#@!!, she F-ed up playing you for a fool, so let’s go get some brews shoot some pool and focus on something better, don’t make me break out the taser put you in the trunk and take you there, I’m not joking I’ve heard enough of the broken record you sound like a miserable old lady and it’s getting on my nerves!!”
I agree that INTJs like NLP, it’s why I became a master practitioner and also a hypnotist. We know that breaking someone’s state, may mean using shocking language or changing their physiology, because no one can remain in a negative state of mind when they are experiencing positive physiology.
In a way the pretend narrative I outlined above is possible, but I will try humor or empathy, or logic before I break anyone’s balls. I know that if I blow up it’s because I’m all tapped out emotionally, and even though I look for negatives or come off as cynical, I’m really looking forward to something more optimistic and positive for the person I’m engaged with and that is my focus. Surprisingly people often think in present terms and would accuse an INTJ of being negative, or pessimistic when we don’t really think that way at all. Everything we do in our minds is for the greater good.
I was excited to read this comment, because it was almost my exact same thought process while listening to the podcast. When I heard that there’s going to be a podcast on all eight functions my mind translated it into ‘Oh great! A podcast on INFJs and their use of introverted intuition.’ Then I started listening to the podcast and got so upset when the topic of empathy came up that I actually stopped to the podcast and curled up next to my husband telling him how upset I was because Antonia and Joel said I’m a cold person that doesn’t use empathy. It took me two days to realise that the podcast wasn’t about INFJs and their empathy, it was on introverted intuition.
It was hard to listen to you talk about how introverted feeling is somehow closer to the heart than introverted intuition, but I think it was harder for INFJs to listen to, not for INTJs (who maybe were happy to hear that they’re connecting to people cognitively and that’s appreciated by people around them). I may be wrong here – but introverted feeling looks much more similar in different types using this function than introverted intuition, which is used by both ‘thinkers’ and ‘feelers’. For very emphatic INFJs it was probably hard to hear that their Driver isn’t an empathy function. That’s true, but for an INFJ constantly mixing introverted intuition with extraverted feeling it never feels like that. We’re deeply affected by everything, and I think it rubs us the wrong way to hear that we have a non-feeling Driver function. That means you’re right in saying introverted intuition is a function trying to understand without emotion involved, but that’s not how INFJS use it, and even after listening to the podcast twice I still can’t summarise why you think introverted intuition as used by an INFJ is appreciated.
Maybe it would have been better to distinguish between Thinkers and Feelers using this function? Introverted Feeling used as a Driver or Co-pilot is always seen in Feelers, so it’s easier to compare the different types here.
Another thing I noticed is that in the last podcast, Introverted Feeling was really appreciated, and in this one there was a lot of (what felt like) criticism. The unhealthy version of Fi wasn’t really mentioned, but it was definitely repeatedly pointed out what unhealthy Ni shows up like and why that’s not cool.
The functions don’t operate in silos, so all NFJ’s Ni will be intrinsically linked to Fe. But the function, itself, doesn’t create those evaluations. You’re correct – Ni is also paired with Te and operates very differently.
Having some psychic distance is what allows INFJs to find a space of solace in their Ni/Ti. Otherwise other people’s emotions would be too overwhelming.
-A-
A point I took to heart – I wasn’t fully aware that I can use Ti as a place to rest and I’m very grateful you pointed that out. I’ve just done a lot of work on harmony and totally forgot the joy of just being alone and following my thoughts.
I hope it came across that I took a lot of helpful info from the podcast, and maybe really getting how NTJs use it is a good thing. The only thing I found tricky was the phrasing on empathy, because that’s exactly what a lot of NFJs are using introverted intuition for. I agree with Carolyn that it sounded like introverted feeling is better at empathy (especially after your incredibly kind words at the end of the last podcast on introverted feeling, which I totally second and had my husband (INFP) listen to.
As an ENFJ, thank you! It was quite interesting to listen that Ni users are not openly emphatic. As many INFJs and ENFJs are in the fields where that is paramount.
The use of certain lingo in this podcast made me feel a little bit out of my depth but I think I managed to follow.
Is it possible to store abstractions or rather, triggers for them? I think I am an Ni dom and I experience Ni this way. When I read a book things can get a little overwhelming so I write down phrases or words that stand out to me and sometimes I’ll pin pieces of paper on my noticeboard. Over time, I’m able to gain more insight into situations in life from poring over this material. So I archive bits and bobs (more often externally so I can reference them over and over again) but I have to store them in their most essential nature. Almost like a distillation process.
As an INFJ I’ve always been interested in what makes people tick. Eleven years ago I discovered the enneagram and was immediately hooked on the system. I’ve spent the last five years diving into my own subconscious and unconscious mind, revealing many psychological patterns, that I then integrated. I made a key discovery during this time of a trauma I suffered at three years old. It was an everyday occurrence that affected me deeply. My baby brother was born.
I came to understand that I had been completely bonded with my mum when my brother was born and.went into shock when I awoke to see her holding him. My heart was broken, I felt completely emotionally abandoned, that I had been replaced and so I forcibly shifted my attention away from my heart to my head. I didn’t show any of my pain and instead began to intensively study my mum and my family in an attempt to understand who I needed to be for the love I had lost to return. I wanted to return to the harmony of our connected hearts.
This was revealed slowly over time through daily self exploration and healing. I also reflected on the enneagram, considering what might be revealed in terms of a map of higher consciousness. In 2012 I had a brief, spontaneous, deep connection to higher consciousness that was totally overwhelming and I came to see that this level of consciousness has 9 aspects. What emerged from this exploration was a trinity of 9 Heavenly Aspects of Heavenly Father (369) Heavenly Mother (471) and Heavenly Child (258).
I often feel that the wisdom that was revealed to me, needs to be shared and yet getting into action has eluded me so far. I do feel I’m gradually getting closer to moving into action. The past few years I’ve found studying Mbti, mainly via PH, has been incredibly helpful. I’ve focused a lot on Fe for growth and I feel that Fe will ultimately be the key to sharing my discoveries. I’ve seen how addictive my Ni is, it’s my comfort zone. I over use it because I enjoy it so much. Even when I realise that I know more than enough to get into action, I still fall back into learning more, rather than doing.
I think I should just add that I may be an ENFJ. Sometimes I feel certain I’m an INFJ, sometimes an ENFJ. My perspectives didn’t kick in until midlife (as described above) so this males me feel I’m an ENFJ. It’s difficult because I’m sociable but introverted BUT…I was more extroverted when I was younger. I’m definitely an intuitive ‘blender; which also makes me think ENFJ is more likely. Any thoughts appreciated 🙂 (Oh and I tested INFJ recently but that may reflect my more introverted ways, enjoying being on my own etc in midlife.
I remember Antonia advising an ENFJ to go deeper rather than have too many superficial friends and that rings true.The description of ENFJ ‘Tribe over self’ by DaveSuperpowers on YT feels very true. Do INFJ’s relate to that too?
Hi! I have never commented before, but just wanted to add a thought. I think in terms of a comparison to a show like Black Mirror, sometimes when I hear the phrase “running simulations” and “consequences/cause and effect” together, I think more of the Ne/Si polarity. To me, as an INFJ, perspectives is more metacognitive and abstract – I often try to create models from personal interactions or experiences, and universalize them. However, the idea of complex world-building doesn’t feel as true to the nature of Ni to me. I am not sure if this is accurate, but just wanted to add that caveat – Ni to me might grasp a vague notion of a universal model, but in terms of details, for me at least, the vision of the system I get is more like the steel frame of a skyscraper, rather than an intricate mural.
It’s not uncommon for people to master some elements of a function over other elements, even a dominant function. But internal world building is definitely a function of Introverted Intuition. At our last Profiler Training event we implemented an exercise that walked people through this very thing. In a room full of Ni and Ne users, the exercise was difficult for the NPs and SJs, whereas the NJs and SPs has no problem. The INxJs were already doing it before we finished giving instructions.
The other possibility is that you are world building and running simulations so unconsciously you take it for granted. Other people’s minds are worlds in themselves, and considering the meaning of their actions is running simulations.
-A-
Hi Antonia,
Thank you for the reply! I do think it is something I take for granted, because after reflecting I realized that this is a pretty natural ability for me. Perhaps the wording of “running simulations” translated to my mind as “asking what if and generating possibilities quickly.” I have learned to code that quick possibilities style of intuiting as Ne, which is a lack of nuance on my end. The inside of my mind (what I presume to be Ni at play) sometimes feels like an ocean that I am watching to see whether or not the next wave brings an insight with it – it’s kind of slow and hard to control, and when an insight arrives, it’s tenuous and difficult to capture unless I articulate it instantly to someone or write it down. For what it’s worth, I was not personally offended by anything that was said in the podcast, specifically regarding empathy or the emotional distance/”objectivity” of Ni. From my own experience, that resonated and felt pretty spot on.
Anyway, sorry to have gotten caught up on the nitty gritty – I really appreciate the information you communicated and the respect with which you respond to those who comment. It is a large investment of your time but I am sure most of us appreciate the effort you put into making sure you have data rapport with your audience.
P.S. I did misspell my own name in the first comment – oops
I also thought many of the descriptions of Ni perspective taking here should really have been for Ne. Ni does build internal pictures of how the world works, but these are more in the realm of a person’s inner psychology and collective unconscious. The kind of playing with external real world patterns is more Ne. For example, I think Charlie Brooker (writer of Black Mirror), is most likely an ENTP.
I aslo disagree with the podcast that Ni can easily shift perspectives. Again, this kind of flexiblity is more common with Ne-doms. Most of the work done on the function axes find that Ni-Se filter info to fit one common grand narrative/vision/picture. This explains why INTJs are so singular and determined in their visions for change, or why INFJs get attached to their idealised visions of the world.
I should add that the example you gave of the ENTJ who could deliberately choose to reframe his perspective may be a sign of his Te practicality. His Ni- auxilliary serves his Te. INTJs and INFJs find this alot harder. In the case of the INFJs, they may show this ability to understand your perspective when in councilling mode, but they dont do this for their own lives and beliefs.
As an INFJ that was in an awful relationship, I did just that. I realised I’d made a mistake, but not seeing a way out I simply shifted my perspective until it matched my reality. It took me a long time to realise that I could also use this process to see a different future play out and then to make that happen.
Thanks for sharing this. I don’t have Ni so I may be completely wrong about this. But I think there’s something here. How often do you find yourself cognitively reframing your perspectives, and how easy it is for you to change from something you previously believed as true previously?
So comparing with an ENTP (who also has Ti quite strong), they seem to change their perspectives (personally held ones, not just simulations) every week. This may be because they never really have one firmly held one and are always looking at reality through multiple lenses simultaneously. So any perspective shift is so small for them.
But maybe for Ni-doms, the shift is rarer and is something momentous and often has significant impacts. It takes longer to abandon an old perspective but when they do the felt change has greater implications and changes real life in a more meaningful way. In short the shifts are rarer for Ni but much more drastic and remarkable when they happen.
Interested to hear what you think. Just trying to reconcile the idea from other sources that Ni users usually have one grand narrative/perspective and what PH say about simulating different scenarios in their head. PH, are they simulating different scenarios from the same grand perpective of the world, or changing the lens with each simulation? Also, how would you explain INJs becoming attached and doggedly determined about their singular perspectives once they have found one which feels so true?
I can relate, Natasha, & I like the bit you say at the end about seeing a different future & making it happen– I’m going to try that now.
Interesting, as I have also experienced an INFJ I know seeming to have a hard time swim perspectives. I don’t know if I’m just biased though, as this person is a family member.
I had an INFJ friend a few years back who fell in love with a guy that wasn’t interested. She created this entire world in her mind where his behaviour (not wanting the relationship) made sense looking through the lens of the perspective she stuck to, which was of course that he was also very interested. The friendship didn’t last once I decided not to live in her perspective anymore. I say live in because being around her was like entering a world that existed next to reality. But again, I showed the same behaviour of picking a perspective and defending it against any other input that would make me question it.
Ne thinks in possibilities, but it is hampered in its ability to run simulations. That’s why it acts much quicker than Ni – it pattern recognizes as it’s in motion. And as the other side of the Ne/Si polarity, it pulls on the past to navigate the novelty it has now introduced into its life.
Running a simulation of how the future will look isn’t an Ne/Si polarity strength. There are many Black Mirror episodes that deal in the realm of Ne/Si (for instance, the episode where people could record literally every interaction and review it/get lost in it), but the actual forecasting of how the future would look with these kinds of technologies available is an Ni simulation.
I don’t know the best-fit type of the show creator. I haven’t met them personally.
-A-
Thanks for the reply Antonia! From this, I think I understand what you mean by perspective shifting now. However, I sort of have to redefine the terms to make sense of it all. Please correct me if I’m wrong or misunderstanding here:
– Ni has a very intricate and holistic vision of the world. It’s not a map per se (symbolic representation is more Si) but more like another ‘subjectively’ created view/perspective which shows what is really going on behind their glimpses of real world (Se). — I don’t think this is what you’re referring to when you say simulation.
– From this one vision of the world, it can play journalist traversing its landscape and viewing multiple perspectives of this subjective world. However this vision of the world they are exploring is still singular. They are not exploring multiple perspective of the real world, but of this Ni understanding of world, which is more or less singular. One grand view/map (need new terminonology).
– Even though this worldview is their subjective creation, it feels objective because their self as an agent was not relevant in creating/envisioning it. Ni is beneath subjectively experienced phenomenon (which is Si). Because it feels objective, they can take multiple perspectives within this map-of-world, understanding other’s perpectives with the help of this map.
– They can also simulate different scenarios and make uncannily accurate predictions.
– These predictions are accurate to the extent that the subjective vision-of-world (need new term for this) was constructed with integrity in the first place from their glimpses (Se) of the real world.
– So I’m differentiating between the Ni vision of the world (singular) and the simulations/predictions made using and from it. The base Ni vision/map is not a simulation because it feels objective true (like they are objectively seeing it) for them. You can say it’s not the real world (and this is why they can sometimes get into trouble), but simulation is the wrong word. More like a map they’ve pieced together over time.
Is this correct?
Also, what’s really interesting is why do you think Ni is detached perception? I believe it so, but what is the technical reason?
Thanks!
As an INTJ, yes this is a very good explanation of the Ni process. I also agree that the term “simulation” may be overloaded in this case and confusing people, best to separate it out as you did.
You had some comments elsewhere that asked how Ni users can have both a singular vision yet perspective shift. That’s because Ni is about seeing a idea/ thing/circumstance/scenario from all points of view, and distilling it into it’s essence by relating it against it’s map of other distilled, abstract ideas. And it’s detached because it looks at things not just from individual human points of view, but also largely from the points of view of the systems that fed into that situation (and humans are just systems, really).
But at the end of the day, after spending the time to see all sides and building up this map of how all the systems of the world and human society works, we still have our own personal belief (from our judging functions) of how the world could be better. And it’s so obvious to us how to achieve that better world, just change these systems around and voila no more poverty! An end to climate change! So simple, so easy, can’t the external world just do that? That’s where there singular pigheadedness comes from.
The more sophisticated Ni becomes the more nuanced it’s understanding of systems in the world and why everyone can’t just. Do that. I wish though Lol.
Since I don’t use Ne (and haven’t listened to many of Antonia and Joel’s talks on it!), I can’t comment on the comparison. I do find, as someone who uses Ni, I think I am having fewer and fewer perspectives of my own the more I think about and try to understand things. It seems hard to justify a single perspective (e.g. mine) when so many others exist and may be equally valid.
Does anyone else frequently experience this sort of “I don’t have an perspective” phenomenon?
Yes, as an INFJ I can find it hard to both have & hold onto one perspective especially around people close to me. I see the legitimacy of what they need & want too, so it can create quite the dilemma.
Thank you for sharing this discussion. As a (probably) INTJ whose driver process is Introverted Intuition, I listened closely to this discussion, and while I don’t have too much insight to add, I can atleast share my own experiences.
I do agree with your conclusion that Introverted Intuition is a tool to understand oneself and others distanced from emotion. One of the difficulties I’ve had is dealing with the societal pressure to be empathetic towards others. *[For the remainder of this discussion, I will define empathy as the capacity to share the emotions of others (e.g. to experience feelings similar to and in response to, someone else’s feelings); not simply the capacity to recognize them.] I don’t really know how to be empathetic most of the time. Of course, I don’t see myself as a sociopath or villain. I don’t like to see others suffer, and I prefer a world with increasing happiness, freedom, and productivity for everyone. I can recognize the emotions of others, and give them space to process them. However, except in specific and limited circumstances, I am not able to share in those emotions.
I initially developed a ‘simulated empathy’ (though I’m sure many others do this as well, even those who don’t use Introverted Intuition), such as pretending to be sad when others are sad. Eventually I realized that true empathy isn’t needed. As long as we can have respect and the best of wishes for others, we don’t need to feel what others are feeling. That realization gave me a lot of freedom to more deeply explore myself and others without letting my own feelings, or the feelings of others, impose limitations.
What does everyone else think about empathy? Is your definition similar to mine? Is empathy something you use or mimic? How important is empathy in being a decent human being?
Thanks again for sharing.
Okay, interesting. So maybe I explore possibilities, because I definitely don’t think I identify with the simulation building.
I know Joel and Antonia gave an example of a TV show in which simulation building involved examining how the drug trade influenced different aspects of an entire city. I don’t think that simulation has to be done on such a grand scale, or be so impersonal. As an example, I remember that I used to make games for my family members to play at Christmas time in order to receive their gifts. One such game was a quiz question: “John and Sally are walking into a department store, and John decides to give some cash to the Salvation Army donation receiver outside the store. List three possible reasons that he may have done this.” I would consider this is a simulation too, but’s it’s much more personal.